Jeff is joined by Top 100 Customer Success Strategist 2020 & 2021 Shari Srebnick, the Head of Customer Success at Searchmetrics. Shari educates Jeff on the best ways to listen to your customer to drive better enagement and customer relationships. Topcis include:

- Why NPS isn't the best or only way to track customer sentiment

- Properly segmenting your customer base to make sense of your data collection

- Surveying end-users AND stakeholders

- How to create your strategy around customer sentiment

- What NOT to talk about in the QBR

And a lot more- Shari drops nugget after nugget here, so listen with your notebook open!

Transcript:

Jeff  00:07

Hey there, it's Jeff, thanks again for downloading this and was enjoy this interview. Just last couple of guys have been awesome, because I've been learning so much Shari Srebnick is Well, she knows a lot about a ton of things. But we focused on the customer journey in where to have those listening points. And it was such a good interview, you know, for me, because I sort of have my set ways of going about things and answers that I gave around things like NPS and CSAT. And Sherry was just dropping nugget after nugget of try this and make sure your strategies intact, and why survey them if you don't have a strategy and make sure your citations correct. And it's just one thing after another so break out your notebooks. Take a lot of notes. Show us a masterclass here, and I hope you enjoy. Thanks, Tom. I'll do it. All right, we are rolling Shari Srebnick. I get it. I get it. That's good. I'll take it. Okay. Okay. We were just chatting about five minutes about how to pronounce last names and all the torture we've been through growing up, but but I'll go from there and will not, will not go on. So I met Sherry on a game grow, retain session about serving your customers. And you know, if you're from the East Coast, you like seeing other East Coast, especially like New York and Boston, because I think we just operate like at 45 where everybody else is on 33 for all you people just getting back into vinyl. So. So I'm like, Hey, was this fast talk in New York, who really knows what's going on? Right, like so. So I reached out and said, Hey, you're really passionate about that subject? I'd love you to bring the fire to see if there's people who are, you know, startup leaders starting up their their ces or just going through and doing an evaluation and seeing like, what's something that's missing in my toolset? So Sherry, tell us a little bit about yourself, where you are and how you got there. And we'll go from there.

Shari Srebnick  03:14

First shout out to the East Coast, East Coast represent, right.

Jeff  03:19

Get more done by now now. Thanks, Jeff.

Shari Srebnick  03:23

So let's see a little bit about me. I'm a native New Yorker. I think everyone that's heard good knows this. Yeah, you can pick up on that. I am currently the head of client success in the US for Search Metrics. We're a global SEO content marketing search data company. I've been here a little over six years. What else can I tell you about me? I am passionate about CES. I mean, there's so many things like, you know, we're all not just one thing. But

Jeff  03:56

yeah. What got you into CES?

Shari Srebnick  04:01

That's a great question. I have always been in client facing roles. I was I had roles in the past that were sort of a hybrid, you know, maybe more account management, because it was long before ces existed and account management or something that also had some new business responsibility. So I had to had that in my past and it just wasn't for me. I didn't like having a quota over my head. I wasn't a hunter at all. I was much more comfortable in the farming role, like building the relationship, helping people achieve their goals, but then also, you know, you can still be upgrading their business and selling so to speak. Even even on the farming side of the house. It's just different, though. It's more consultative and you know their business more and that's a whole different thing. And then over the years, I wanted to make a transition in my career and then I started seeing all these on LinkedIn, these customer success. As jobs I'm like, What is this?

Jeff  05:01

Exactly now? was five years?

Shari Srebnick  05:04

Yeah. And this was Gosh, going back a long time. And I looked at the job descriptions. I'm like, Oh, okay. Yes. Yes. And that's kind of where that's how I ended up here.

Jeff  05:19

Yeah. You know, true. Empaths. Right. Like I was talking to Dan, I don't know if you know, Dan Gordon, she was my boss. And she then went on, she was one of the first ces people to start a CSO org and everything. And I was like, what are the types of people that you hire, you know, right off the bat. And she's like, you know, when you're all in a room, and it's hot, and you're the one who gets up and opens the window. And it's just that type of person. Right? Like, that's, that's what I always think of when I think about CES and the type people that get into it. So awesome. So I think for what we can talk about many things,

Shari Srebnick  05:52

but we decided we can.

Jeff  05:55

We talked about snow shoveling but we today we're going to talk about the sort of, as you call, I love the term like listening towards around the customer like like there's the customer journey. Everybody focuses on Okay, the MQL comes in deal gets signed after a couple of different stages. And then it gets into the customer journey, or shall we say the post sale customer journey. And in you were talking about sentiments, and just how to survey your customers just getting this overall feeling of the customer. And you've got a lot more to say on this than I can. So I would love to, you know, just give us your state on this. And where do you think this is now and where should be?

Shari Srebnick  06:35

Well, it's listening. I mean, we all need to listen to our customers, right? I'll say this, I find, and I'm sure many can relate that we sit in meetings in in our own companies, right, and you're sitting in the room, and you're thinking about all the things you want to do, like, what are these initiatives that we want to do, and we're going to do this, and we're going to do that. And if you take a step back, and you just listen, you realize nine times out of 10, you're talking about things from the inside out what's gonna be good for you and your company. And what you really need to be doing is thinking from the outside in, what do our customers need from us right to be successful? And I think that's the first step to start thinking about before you're thinking about all these great initiatives, we should do this, we should do that. And we all have great ideas. I mean, the information out there is overwhelming, right? And I can admit, I've been one of those people like I've read a book or was in a Gangrel, routine, ces leadership office hours, or listen to a podcast, and like, that's a great idea. And you get distracted from what you're doing. And then you start thinking about we should do this, but like, stop yourself, what do your customers need? Right? But then you have How do you know what your customers need? Well, where's all the you know, you have to look, what data do you have, you know, that you're looking at in terms of customer health? And you know, why people are you know, why people are turning? Do you know, what are your top risk reasons? What are the top reasons that people canceled? So you can start gathering that data to understand like, what can we do better, so that we don't, we're not doing exit interviews, because they've left us right, we're doing a lot less of those, because we're listening earlier on to be able to mitigate those things where we don't are not talking to them without, you know, post post cancellation. So I think that's the first part like, where do you even start? And how do you then even share that more broadly, because it's not just something that customer success needs to look at? That data is going to be interesting and necessary for other folks that you work across collaboratively with such as marketing, your customer marketing team, your product team, your sales team, right? Like if that data is useful for everybody, and you have to be able to disseminate? Who gets what, and then you can start thinking about initiatives. So that's the first thing.

Jeff  09:05

Yeah, you know, it's funny, because what I hear were, you know, where do you start with this, everybody immediately goes to, you know, oh, it's the NPS score, which just might drive us crazy, but I'm like, exactly. That's the I wish I could have seen the look that I just got, but that's exactly what I say people are like, we're the one decision I get asked is, it shouldn't be NPS or customers that are in I'm just like, Well, I mean, you need you definitely need one of them. But it's like part of both or it's part of a portfolio strategy. And that's just one little bit add, you know, treat your customers sentiment like investment portfolio, you need tons of different things. You just can't go all in on either CSM sediment or NPS or customer set. So you know, the place where I see this typically happening is you get people to get on boarded and implemented in their in their CSMs hands if You know, if you've got a separate onboarding team, and then everybody's like, Okay, well, let's just make sure we have our NPS, and we're sending our NPS scores out. Now, if you came into a place, and that's what they were doing, what would you immediately do to fix that situation?

Shari Srebnick  10:15

Well, let's talk about NPS for a second. Because absolutely, I am not the biggest fan. But I do think it can be useful. But it's really, first of all, we all know it was designed for b2c, but now b2b companies have decided to use it. Now, I think, if you can make it more advantageous by asking a different question, it still can only be one question, but how can you pose it in a way that might give you data that's going to be more you know, it's going to be better for you. But if you're going to use the general question of, would you recommend us to you know, your friend or colleague, then your whole survey is about loyalty and advocacy, right? It's just about loyalty, it's different. You're not, you may not get any risk from it. Like, there's, there's a way to use the data and make it important, but you're not always going to use it to unnecessarily uncover the things you think you might need to uncover. And I don't think it's always deployed properly. So for example, things that I would want to see with if you're going to, you're going to do NPS, which a lot of boards want,

Jeff  11:22

it's one of those things is the board they come in, they're like, Yeah, we need to see NPS. And it's like, why I'm not a big fan of it, either. But I'm also realized some people that might be all they can get, and they need to start somewhere. So

Shari Srebnick  11:34

So I would want to look at it by the different set, like what's your customer segmentation? So send it like, make sure that data you send anything out by segment and even by cohort? So are you have it or end users are you know, your budget folks, you know, the people that have that influence? Like are you getting it to a larger swath of, of the people at your customers, right? Maybe even by industry, if you serve different, you know, a few different industries, I would want to see habit, you know, the data in different buckets, right. Because, for example, if you're deploying it in app, which a lot of people do an in app can be great, because you're getting people in the moment, what what happens there is you're only getting end users, you may not ever get the people that make the decisions and hold the purse strings. And if their sentiment is different from the end users, you're going to have risks that you never knew about. And that's why it's also important to have other places along the customer journey, other listening posts for that data, that that to NPS. So you want to segment it, right. But then you look at your responses. And everyone's like, Oh, look, we get it. You hear from the ones and twos, right? And you hear from the nines and 10s, the nines and 10s. Great, that's how there's your loyalty and advocacy, pass that on to marketing. Maybe there can be a testimonial or a case study or something that you can use, you know, that your sales team can use for acquisition, like there's lots of different ways you can use that data, right? That's, that's always great. We always want advocacy. Yeah, but then the ones and twos and everyone flips out, like, oh, they gave us a one. And they wrote us a terrible, terrible, you know, they answered the question, and they wrote terrible things. But I would say that's an opportunity, because they're still engaged enough to tell you that your baby's ugly.

Jeff  13:16

Because it's scary, I'm not even gonna answer that

Shari Srebnick  13:18

they could not even answer, but they're still engaged enough. So you have an opportunity to have a conversation with those folks. And oftentimes, you could probably turn them at least into a passive, I would work on that. But the bigger the bigger piece of the puzzle that people often miss is the middle the ones that don't respond at all. And they're typically I think, seven times more likely to churn, the ones that are completely radio silent, or they apathetic. You know what happened with them, I would want to see a list of all the folks that didn't respond and plan outreach to that. So ultimately, what you want to do is to wrap that up, because that was a lot of info is to have a strategy and a plan for what you're going to for how you're going to deploy NPS and what you're going to do with the data that you get URL after, because then you you say, Oh, look, our score improved eight points from last quarter. But what does that even mean? No one knows what that means. So what can you do with the data? What intelligent information can you get? And then use going forward? Right. So that's my feeling about NPS. But, you know, like I said, I think it's more important to have other listening posts. And it doesn't even you know, you can call it a CSAT or you can call it anything, but it's getting customer sentiment at different places along the customer journey. Yeah.

Jeff  14:38

Where are your some of your places where you get that, that maybe people don't know as much about like, for me, you know, I think most people know like, oh, go to your QBR and you should have some stuff and be ready to listen, and that's just a QPR. I feel like that's your stage two as in you just maybe implemented NPS and you're talking to the customers during your time quarterly business or whenever you're able to do your business reviews, how do you feel about implementing them in other places such like voice of the customer, or maybe I'm not even thinking of as along this path of listening, I'm probably very much Junior as compared to some of the more creative ideas that you have?

Shari Srebnick  15:19

Well, I don't know that I'd want to talk about those things in the QBR. Specifically, I want to talk about like, what your goals were, where you where we started, where we are, where we're going, I think that anything we're going to talk about sentiment or anything from that listening post, it should be a separate conversation. That's my opinion, unless it ties in directly to some of those things. But I think the business review whether it's quarterly, by annually, or even annually, I think it should be focused on the business and their business. Right. So that's, that's my opinion on that. Not to say that you can't do it. That's just how I feel about that, in particular,

Jeff  16:03

go into one time I think I have done that is when they got brought up from a business leader that's saying, like, I'm talking to my team, and they're saying they're not getting the thing that they're expecting, then, what, after unplugging that string or pulling up strings for a little while, people just needed some retraining on some features and things like that.

Shari Srebnick  16:23

Yeah. But that's, you know, that's a little different. You might hear that, and then we can talk about, you know, maybe realigning on expectations, and setting up a new joint success plan with milestones to help them like where, where do they feel they need to help, this is great, we can do that, where, you know, let's focus on that. And we'll put a plan together so that we can hit those, you know, make sure that they're, you know, if you take 30 days, and the end of the 30 days, that'll be our goal so that they are able to leverage x and y to do Z, right. So we can do that. But in terms of other listening posts, I think a great, you know, two places that are off the top of my head, and that I've tried to do before was like, say post onboarding. Or if you're, if your software requires implementation, it could be, and they might be two things, right? There's implementation, and then there's onboarding. So you could do a survey, you know, or some kind of, you know, listening post at the end of implementation, how did they feel that that went, and then post onboarding? Right, what that looks like. That's important, because there's, you know, there's a saying the renewal, the renewal starts at onboarding,

Jeff  17:35

that's it's an every I have retention starts in implementation on my slides.

Shari Srebnick  17:40

Exactly. So I think finding customer sentiment with every new customer that goes through that is incredibly important. What patterns are you seeing? Where can it be improved? Are you noticing things, maybe there was a lack of maturity at certain customers, that is there education pieces that need to happen. So I think that's incredibly important. Because you can find out a lot, because you always want to have a, you know, end of onboarding, review. You know, you can and then you create awareness, hey, this is we're gonna send this out, we'd love it, if you to fill out this survey, or, you know, just this questionnaire for us.

Jeff  18:15

That's a good baseline to write like, we're here. And now let's add value and keep adding value. Do they need

Shari Srebnick  18:21

help in other places still, like we we finished onboarding, and we might have met milestones, but you might have some folks that still need an extra hand on some things. So that's a great place to realign again, and we set expectations for the path forward and understand how they felt about the whole process. Again, is there places that we can improve, and you can use if people respond, and they give you something to work with? That's an open door, hey, I got you know, I saw that you responded X and Y, whether it was positive or not, would you have 20 minutes to jump on a call, I'd love to understand more about why you gave us that score, or why you wrote those things like, because, you know, this will help us that's opportunities to continue to build the relationship, and maybe, you know, iterate on processes and things that you have, that could be better. Another great spot for a listening post is, you know, midway through the relationship, let's say six months, from whenever their contract starts, you know, if it starts in February, you would do it and say, oh, you know, August, so you know, to make that easier. But it shouldn't, you know, it doesn't have anything to do with the renewal. So it shouldn't be too close. That's why six months is a good sweet spot. And just, you know, get a pulse check on what the relationships like. And you know, that should go not just to the people that are using it to someone who signed the budget and all of those things like how do they how do they view you? I did a pilot last year for a small small group of customers to test it out with Steve Bernstein of the waypoint group.

Jeff  19:55

So yes, I remember this, I think is what we were chatting about. Yeah, so Steve,

Shari Srebnick  19:59

like the lodge In the survey, and the questionnaire that we put together was really great. And one of the questions that I love, because it can uncover either some risk or potential opportunity is how do you view whatever the company's name is, right? And they could be something like, you know, vendor solutions provider, strategic partner, how would you like to view them? Same option. So if someone says, Hey, I see you as a solutions provider, but I'd love to see you as a strategic partner, you've got opportunity on your hands. Conversely, you can have someone that, you know, is a budget holder that gives you, you know, is not saying so great things and is kind of given you some low scores, well, you're still six months out from the renewal, that's a great way another you can get on the phone, I'd love to understand why you gave us that like, you know, digging a little bit deeper. So you've got opportunities, one, potentially going, you know, for an upgrade, you know, or an upsell, and another one to potentially mitigate risk, because you're far enough out from the renewal where, depending on the situation, you can save this if it's even worth saving. And I think so that that listening post there to get a pulse check on the relationship. Because your CSM can ask all the greatest questions in the world, and you can have relationships, but it's still sometimes might not be enough. And those listening posts will help you gain more information than you might have gained in a conversation.

Jeff  21:27

No, that's fantastic. That's fantastic. How do you feel about sort of having some of these Voice of the Customer programs as an input into how your customer feels?

Shari Srebnick  21:40

I like them, they're just you getting them together and doing it right is difficult. We, we did something like this last year where it was very much product based and voice of the customer, I think is really all encompassing. So voice of the customer, like even the surveys or the questionnaires that I was just talking about that falls under voice of the customer, right? You can think about it voice of the customer, I think is more all encompassing. It can be any place that you're deploying, like a survey or questionnaire to get that sentiment, it could be your NPS falls into that. And then if you're forming like small groups, like a Customer Council, or you're doing a really a bigger one, like a true cab, like a customer advisory board, which is executive heavy, and long term vision heavy. And that's, that's a little bit different. So but all of those things, I think fall under that umbrella. So for example, we did something here was last year, like a council. Some of our power users we did in in each region about like the product like wanting to know thinking using like the jobs to be done framework. How do you use it today? How would you want to use it? What do you think's missing and why whiteboarding? Like using other tools like Miro? And then speaking

Jeff  22:56

my language? Absolutely,

Shari Srebnick  22:57

it was really fantastic. And, you know, it was great for product to hear directly from folks. You know, and in a lot of cases, it validated things that they were planning for the roadmap. So it helped them understand, okay, we're moving in the right direction. But it also helped them hear from different types of companies, the challenges they're facing, there's a lot of similarity. And then, you know, some, you know, interesting different pieces, but I think that they can be really valuable. But you have to do a couple of things, you have to have a true commitment to it. You have to have follow up, you have to be able to close the loop on all of these things. I think people often you know, they grab this customer data, and whether it's from interviews, or a council, and they're like, great, but you didn't close the loop. You know, customers aren't lab rats, they want to and their time is valuable. So you need to make sure like, how are you going your party if your strategy around any of these programs is how are you closing the loop? And what are you doing going forward to show them that you really listened to them? Right? Even if you can't implement things right away, it's still communication. So I think that was also a critical piece of any of these Voice of the Customer situations like how are you closing the loop?

Jeff  24:11

Otherwise, they're like, exactly like I have 15 vendors, I'm dealing with great I got another survey I I was working with a company and they sent out at the end of every onboarding meeting, and that the every check in there was like, oh, you know, rate us through one through five. And they were like, no, we want to consistently see that. And I was like, well, and the question I asked them was, are they getting survey fatigue from this? And you know, are they just getting constantly surveys and surveys and survey the interesting note on that is that they believed that this I don't recommend this for everybody. But since they started them from the beginning, as in, we want to see how you feel about us from like, the kickoff meeting through that just became this normal thing where they got an email, click one through 10 or one through five, and that's what they got there. But I don't know I think I would go implement that today, you know, but it seems to be working for them at the data point. But I'd like to perhaps talk to others and see how they how they feel about that, because I see just tons and tons of survey fatigue and things like that. So if it's easy, perhaps we can just click know, one through five, and then just off into the wilderness, I'm not, you know, that might work.

Shari Srebnick  25:20

Well, I used to talk, think survey, survey fatigue can be real, but I think it's because it often isn't done properly. It's not just about closing the loop, it's also creating the awareness prior to it even happening, right? Like, are you educating your CSMs and getting buy in from the people that we're sending it to making them aware that it's coming, getting confirmation from them, that they'll fill it out? Explaining why, even if they can send an email, like there can be communication, that can come from the CSM, saying, you know, can I explaining what it is, they can say, talk to them on a call? Can I get you know, can? Can I get your participation in this? Will you, you know, can you confirm? So I think a lot of it is also the pre, the pre questionnaire, or, you know, whatever it is you have to have like that, create that awareness. And it's not just about seeing it once, you may want to do it at least twice, you know, it's repetition, and then you can and then send it out. So they're not just like, What is this, they're looking out for it? Right? And that kind of thing. And then it's reminders like, you know, it goes out, then a week later, you send a second reminder to those that haven't responded yet, you can send a final reminder, and that kind of thing. But so it's the communication. It's not just here's a survey goodbye, it's there's, there's a there has to be an entire plan and strategy about how this is going to be deployed.

Jeff  26:44

Right? And having that strategy around it all sidenote, there's nothing worse than getting that survey monkey where you open up and it's five and then says just click one more thing. And then it's like 15 more questions. I'm like, Oh, my God. Yes. Like,

Shari Srebnick  26:55

do you have five minutes for a couple of like, one extra question? And then it's like, 37 questions. I'm like, yeah, what is happening here?

Jeff  27:02

Big textboxes? Like, I don't I can't even like, no, no, it's just the worst everything. You know, I, I'm seeing a big trend here, which is, you know, don't put something into effect unless that you can be actionable upon it, right? Because then it's almost worse. If, if you've got an Ask somebody like, hey, where can we help. And then there's just nothing, there's no response to it. And it's just like, I guess that didn't really do anything, right, but having a strategy. And then the other thing that popped into my head was saying to all this is, this is a lot of work in this, but it should be done. And this is also why people need to make sure that their CSM is aren't like doing support calls and chasing bugs down unless you know it's necessary, right? It's that if you want to maintain these customers and drive customers to growth and renewal, you have to give your your teams adequate time enough to be able to work on strategies like this as well, too.

Shari Srebnick  27:58

Sure. I mean, like I said, it's customer success. And like those teams, whether it's enablement ops, like the team itself, like implementation, they're not the only ones benefiting from this data, like marketing can benefit from it. Sales, like say you find something, you know, and you have a questionnaire post implementation and post onboarding. Like, maybe there's something the implementation team has to know or maybe there were some things said in the pre sales cycle, that you know, that, you know, sales, that's, that's making it more difficult for people on the post sale sides of that. Because you know, that never happened. Never Never. Are you

Jeff  28:36

telling me that sales over

Shari Srebnick  28:37

sales sometimes come on now? I would never say that. Okay, just making sure. I don't want my sales friends to get upset with me. No, but, you know, like, that can help sales, right? It can help. What do you know, like, for marketing? Do you have data that are we finding that executives and that relationship, there's things that they're not aware of like, okay, customer marketing, what can they be putting out to the people that may not be using the software, but are the budget holders and should know more about right, like, there are lots of different things and other departments. If it's product related? Well then of course product needs that information. So ces really kind of sits in the driver's seat for all of this. They may be the ones with the strategy and deploying it but they have valuable information to share with other leaders in the organization.

Jeff  29:26

No, that's great. That's great. I think we went in deep here pretty good. So I'd say try and get this around the half hour or so. I like to close these out with a little questionnaire around what was your big COVID hobby? Are you a better are your bread bakers? I want I'm good I did

Shari Srebnick  29:46

not bake. I did not my kitchen is too small. I wine was a hobby.

Jeff  29:56

Aaron Thompson. I think we're mutual friends. He said day drinking was his The was zoom Hobby

Shari Srebnick  30:02

Lobby. Yeah. So it's funny. I'll tell a very quick story about that. Like when it first when we first got locked down and at will right beforehand, like before things like we knew it was imminent, like things weren't closing

Jeff  30:13

February Yeah, like march

Shari Srebnick  30:14

like I went to the store I was like, You know what I should run to the liquor store and just grab like a bottle or two or wine. And then I was talking to my group of friends. And they were all ordering cases of wine. And I'm like, I didn't really have a lot of food in my refrigerator. But I felt more like I had more anxiety about not having enough wine because they were making me crazy, that I was like, I had to run back to the liquor store. And it didn't drink at all at once. By no means but I was like, This is ridiculous. What else did I do? I ordered all sorts of crafts off of Amazon and I my inner, my inner like 12 year old came out I was like coloring. Yeah, I bought like, some like I said, I was doing all different crafts, like stupid stuff. Like I was

Jeff  31:00

anything. There's a watercolor.

Shari Srebnick  31:04

I was and I organized, I cleaned my apartment and organized like to, to the point where I was like, I can't find anything now.

Jeff  31:13

You need an Evernote file that tells which folder has all the different things

Shari Srebnick  31:17

organized to the point where now I was like, I organized myself right out of my own apartment. I don't know where anything is.

Jeff  31:26

Well, sure, I'm gonna put you we're going to just wrap up at I'll end this out. But thanks so much. Any any last tips or any any advice for startups? Yes, people around these topics that we've discussed?

Shari Srebnick  31:41

Yeah, drink wine. Yeah, that's definitely always advice. Tip number one, these things are tough. But I would say getting buy in always, always, always the way you're gonna get buy in to do something like this. And really done right and invest in a company, like using waypoint group or something like that, I would say, tie it, make a predict, like, have a forecast of how we're doing this can improve your NRR or your growth, your churn rate, and tie it to results. Because if you want budget for things like this, you got to speak the language of the people that you know, that you're talking to. So tie it to what it can do, and how it can help. And you can also do that with your other cross departmental leaders on how can help them so you have you go into your CFO role and deep with with your people behind you

Jeff  32:37

get to talk money, statistics. And yes, when you go into it, I I've always called it and now it's back and popular again. It's always called those meetings, a game of Survivor, you know, you walk into exec staff, and you're like, Yeah, I need to, you know, I need this money for this serving tool. And everybody you know, if you've got if there's 10 people and you've got five or six on your side, you're good to go. Right? Like you just get that CFO is on board sales is on board marketing. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's great advice.

Shari Srebnick  33:03

That would be my advice on you know, and obviously it's a forecast, it's a prediction, but if you can tie that to revenue and the improvements and what your team is doing, then you'll have a better chance of getting support

Jeff  33:16

for them. Don't be scared to do that because it should work. It's not a guess. Like if you do this correctly, you can positively impact growth and retention. Absolutely.

Shari Srebnick  33:25

100%

Jeff  33:26

Awesome. Well, thanks so much. I'm gonna put you on pause just to wrap up and we just hit that.