Jeff talks with Jan Young every few months to go over Customer Success topics. for this time, we decided to tape it! We were inspired to catch up to discuss the differences in approach between Frank Slootman's new book (where he says CS is not needed) compared to a post from Jason Lemkin. We covered that, and then in our usual style talked about everything on our minds that day!

Topics include:

Jan's background in the entertainment business and how it prepared her for SaaS Hiring specialists vs. generalists and when to use those strategies Analyzed Chris' post vs. Frank Slootman approach on initiatives and success depending on ownership Self-service onboarding vs. complex

Transcript:

Jeff  01:14

All right, I am recording and welcome everybody to the as I call it, the mutual admiration society with myself. And Jan Young who ever I think everybody who's listening to this knows who Jan is. So Jan reached out to me, which is fantastic. Because just, we could probably consider ourselves competitors or not, but I don't really think so. Because like, like, there's just too many people to help out there. Why would we compare us? And so we just got on a on a on a zoom one day and just like let it fly. And I was like, oh, we should have recorded that. And then we got a second one. And then we're like, oh, look at it. And then we said, okay, let's find a topic. And I as most people know, I usually say let's talk about something that you're passionate about. But Jan, just for the one person that just accidentally hit play on this podcast and started hearing me talk. Can you just give a little bit of a background doesn't have to be the resume read. But just sort of your background and why everybody loves hiring you for to help them out?

Jan Young  02:19

Yeah, um, so I am a Principal Consultant at that League, which is what makes the I guess competitors more calling.

Jeff  02:30

Yeah, that's just

Jan Young  02:33

never put you in the enemy camp ever. So yeah, so I that the boutique Customer Success consultancy, been doing that for over a year, maybe a year and a half or so. And before that, for about five years, I was doing my own solopreneur consultancy. Um, you know, so I came from I sort of loved done project management and, and marketing and a lot of different things. A little bit of product, but, but I came from entertainment Tech,

Jeff  03:06

I live in Las Vegas, right? Yeah. So what else are the hardest people to please in the world? Just Oh,

Jan Young  03:13

my God, the egos the high, which is why I work. I moved out to LA to work at Paramount. And I lasted there for the minimum two years back when you know, people still did two years at a job. And quickly they could well it's almost to the day, I moved over to the tech side, which I've always been a geek, I always

Jeff  03:35

just one thing on the entertainment thing is that like, I I remember when I was at Bronco, I worked with a ton of entertainment customers and then and they would always want to validate like, oh, you know, we're tough. You know, we're hard to work with and I would always just say I just did a year with Viacom managing your onboard when can you start?

Jan Young  03:56

Absolutely no, no, it's studios. The studios are all screamers. Oh, yeah, I can I can calm anybody down because I've had to you have to walk people off the ledge. Yeah. And put them into actual you know, best practices because they'll just want to go you know, nitpick here and there that you know, just have you like jump through hoops

Jeff  04:18

there's nothing more there's nothing more than calming than a nice Gantt chart as far as I'm

Jan Young  04:27

alright, anyway, so yeah, so did the entertainment tech stuff. There was a time when entertainment Tech was would you know because I was you know, I was in it from that moment where I actually I went to business school when the.com thing was going on when that was the first you know big downfall right? Yes try it try and get a 401 K going with all the market does it just keeps going down like as long as you have money to buy when it's at that bottom but I got

Jeff  04:57

the messaging for those people weren't around for that was like And you should never look at your 401 K, maybe Oh, every five years just just don't have those five years b 2003. And then 2008. And then.

Jan Young  05:14

Um, so yeah, so, um, so there were, there was that time when, when, you know, all of the content was just moving over to become digital, and that was cool. Everything was changing all the time, you're always sort of, you know, evaluating your strategies. And I was, and for me, this whole business is about strategy. That's what I love about it. That's what I can read. And so, so yeah, so that was fun. And then all the consolidation started to happen. I mean, even the latest one discovery has now bought Warner, you know, anyway, for people who aren't in that business, but you know, I live here, so I know about this stuff. And I mean, it's crazy, just the consolidation that happens to steal daily. And so then if you're moving up the ladder, you know, in in companies like that, all you're basically doing is firing people that. So, so then I made the switch over to emerging tech, because, you know, for me, it's always about the learning and that sort of thing. So I was really into blockchain didn't care about crypto, you know, who cares about the get rich quick stuff? You know, very, very

Jeff  06:17

useful applications for blockchain.

Jan Young  06:19

Yeah, but, but, you know, the, what it does to the environment is still kind of amplify, I thought it'd be democratic and would save the world. And it's not really going to do that, you know, details. So then, what I was doing, I was working with, like, all those founders and startups and things like that. And all the entrepreneurs, man, they have such passion, but they think that since they solve their own problem, that now they understand the customer and I'm always gonna like, okay, look, you have now a customer one. That's all you got.

Jeff  06:51

So just pulls one in, let it fly, right?

Jan Young  06:55

Yeah. Yeah. And so, so yeah. So it's just like, Okay, let you know, cuz that's how I got right back into the customer experience and customer success route. And then, of course, found gains were retained during the rest of the community during the pandemic, and fell in love with all these smart, generous kind, you know, strategic people. And, and there you go. So that's how I ended up making my way over to Kristin and just focusing on customer success. So long, the longest way I'd

Jeff  07:30

say so now we're 2020. Now I'm just getting so

Jan Young  07:33

yeah, right. So yeah, so anyway, so So now I focus my time on I've done a lot of interim, VP, CS roles. I've done a lot of coaching. We also do a lot of public and private teaching, we have certification for CF leaders, which than anything else out there that I've seen to see us leaders, and it's

Jeff  07:53

refer people to that because my goal is get people or that person that's on the verge, player coach needs to be a director, go to this course ticket.

Jan Young  08:05

Because and that's the thing is what happened was I just fell in love with Kristen and her IP, and then we all get to contribute to it. So what is more fun than that? Plus, like the interview process was just geeking out about CF. So, you know, Sign me up. Yeah, so anyway, yeah. So I've been loving it and doing that. And and then otherwise, yeah, consulting, like the way you do, you know, we're trying to help people sort of find their, you know, some spot that they want to improve upon, in that. See, as

Jeff  08:36

mayor, we need to be there. How do we get there? Right?

Jan Young  08:39

Yeah, exactly. And just sort of helping, you know, in whatever way it makes sense. Absolutely. You

Jeff  08:44

touched on something I was a slight nerve that we're now gonna I'm gonna immediately jab with a knife here. Good, good. And we'll try and keep the cursors down if you're driving with your kids, which I mean, I don't know why you do that either. But, but we were going back and forth on some, some founders and some some people out there that are very influential and might be full of crap, right.

Jan Young  09:14

Think that they're they're full of it, I think.

Jeff  09:21

There was like one or two and then I found another, there's another one that like, there's like a Midwest saying, like, really itches, my whatever, but like, I'm trying to really, you know, scratch me that way. And, you know, my perspective, and the reason why some of these things really can get me going is because I always get an email from a client. And they're like, Oh, should we be doing this? And I'm like, no, like, you're 5,000,015 customers. That's what you do when you're like 200 million and you're deciding which Bugatti to buy, right, like so. So anyway,

Jan Young  09:58

so that, that that is something that I thought was interesting. So you had recently shared?

Jeff  10:07

What's what's from insight?

Jan Young  10:09

Yeah, yeah. And so Pablos post about what, you know, kind of renewals, and where that is, you know, based upon the stage of the company. And one thing I really liked about that, is that is that, that it does happen differently by by stages, right? And, and certainly, when you're series A and all of that, you've got, like, several different have gone. And so like a CS program is going to do everything from onboarding, to renewals to support. And, you know, because you don't have enough customers, you don't have enough, you know, work, you know, money.

Jeff  10:48

If you hired five for the five, I think it was mentioned five distinct roles there, if, even if you had the payroll, because you know, some series A customers get a lot of money sometimes. And even if you have that money to spend, if you got the specialists, right, and you hired the specialists, yeah, I literally be like, I I'm, I don't think there's 40 hours worth of work there to do. And then they get nervous and itchy. And oh, my god, like, and then that's a flight risk, right? Versus like, Hey, we're here at this area, I'm taking off my apologies, but we're here at this, this stage of the company, and there's a little bit of generalism that happens and in and then people grow and turn into different roles and things like that.

Jan Young  11:30

Yeah, yeah. Well, and so I was, you know, just looking at kind of what he was talking about. He, of course, being on the investor side, he's not thinking about, like, what stage or how many years, the customers, you know, the company has been around, he's looking at if it's under 30 million, you know, 30 to 100 and 100 plots, right? Yeah. And then it's fine that that's a good approximation for stages. And then, but, you know, then, but when you think about why those companies maybe still have sale, handling renewals versus the CFM, or haven't done a whole separate renewals organization under you know, CFO, or if the account manager is handling renewals, well, then you also have to think about like, well, what's happening with the incentives, right, and what they're incentivized to do, because, you know, I was just talking to a CF leader yesterday. And firstly, a thumbs will do like these small, you know, like automated renewals practically, right. But every Yeah, but if it's anything bigger than that, then it goes back over to the salespeople, except for the salespeople. You know, they're never incentivized to work on the renewals, because they're working on the new the new fish printers. Yeah, absolutely. And so so they're not incentivized to do that. Or if they if they are, what they want to do is sell them a lot more so they can make the bigger commission because they live and die by that commission. Well, that isn't what the customer needs. So, so nobody is incentivized properly. And so of course, it's broken. Yeah. So like, so I think that early on, it's probably fine to make certain that you're, you know, did to train up your CSMs to do it, but you know what there isn't in rev ops, there's all kinds of help for sales and SDR and BDR. And all this kind of stuff, right in terms of how to sell profitably do those discovery calls, etc. But think about it post sales is a different motion. No training out there. No, getting out there. It isn't. Sales motion. And and there's, it's just you have to keep adapting what they have failed to do. You keep having to adapt it for the post sales process, right for expanding the account. And so but anyway, all that to say like, I know somebody who's basically on the renewals team over at Okta. And it makes total sense that Okta you know, has a separate renewals group.

Jeff  14:01

Transactional, right.

Jan Young  14:04

Yeah. And, and if you're dealing with a company that has a really complex, you know, legal and you know, your image and all of that stuff, then then yeah, you need someone who's just spending time getting it through that maze. Yeah, your time is not going to have that time, which is why then you specialize operationally earlier as well. Yeah. So what's funny to me is the way that investors will look at just the renewal portion and how that gets separated out and now that travels around, but it's in the context of the overall all of the responsibilities of a CSM right and and how when do you separate out support? When do you separate out, you know, onboarding, you know, will you do it when you need to?

Jeff  14:46

Because I don't have the numbers because every company is different. You can have a product that is super difficult to launch in is very technical and everything and you might need a bunch of different resources to do that. Yeah. And you know it. But if you've looked at a revenue number, well, what if those things cost like 500? Because I have customer they've got 500k for their software and, and people are paying it. But you've got three customers live Do I need a full time CSM? What let's actually let's run this through let's because this is a, this is a thing here. You're a brand new company, you've made a bunch of sales. You struggle through the first couple ones, get them implemented, right there live now. Got three, let's just say you've got three customers live, right?

Jan Young  15:35

Are they? Are they complex customers? Are they enterprise? Do you have to like dig in across a number of different departments and have a lot of different personas you're working with? Or is it pretty simple,

Jeff  15:45

pretty simple, pretty simple. The

Jan Young  15:47

onboarding is complex onboarding. Relationship part isn't? Exactly. Okay. Well, then, yeah, in that scenario, when you have three customers, but you still have new customers coming in and complex, I would probably have somebody who's focused on onboarding, make certain that that works smoothly. And I would have someone who's covering support and the strategic, you know, relationship building. However, that's so key, like at the beginning, you'll be

Jeff  16:14

losing personally, I can cover but who's a person that can cover support? And also be strategic in the relationship building? I've got an answer. I've got

Jan Young  16:25

all of these, you know, because then all they're doing renewals, then do they also have the sale? But you know, it's probably someone who knows the product? Well,

Jeff  16:32

yeah, I mean, this gets back into the, it just depends on the situation, you gotta make calls, and you might be wrong. You got to patch it together. But like, for now, it's like support tickets come in, we in order to for this particular scenario, in order for the customers to be alive, because it's so complex, you know, bring up brought on a very good program manager. So I like to say project manager, because it gets into a whole, like PMP and Gantt Chart land, but somebody who can work with a customer to get them live. Yeah, you've got him. And then there's another technical resource that gets them, you know, over the hoop and stuff like that. And then the PMs will make sure that the support tickets get covered, you know, and

Jan Young  17:16

I think it always I mean, you basically the way, the way I talked about it, because it drives me nuts, whenever anybody wants a template for something that's Yeah, you can't do like a template for what this is. Step one, step two, step three, fill in the blank, you know what I mean? That is, that's, that's a tough, that's gonna, you're gonna get the point is what people should be asking for is the foundation, what are the foundation? And if you know, the foundation, then if you know what questions to ask, which is all you and I do all day long, right? Then, you know, like, okay, then I want to structure it this way. You know, because based upon all the various scenarios, you know, and that's why I sort of troll around over on all the different slack communities. Yeah, from day to day as well. Because, you know, people ask the types of questions, and then inevitably, though, somebody will say, it depends, because it doesn't

Jeff  18:09

feel seen right now. But we'll get some more detail out of it. Right, let's, let's flesh it out a little bit. Yeah,

Jan Young  18:19

you gotta, because I can apply if I asked some questions, I can apply the foundation, and then give you guidance on some ways you might consider but then it also depends upon sort of legacy, and what skills you have in house already. So funny, I, there was somebody I was talking to operations reported to sale. And, and ces reported to either like marketing or product or something. Like it was just like this weird sort of like, was no real go to market team, like the way it was. And it was just because of the personalities and the skill that were there on the team and what their background was and what they were doing to fill in until they could get the people they needed on

Jeff  19:06

board. That's actually very common. And there's I don't disagree with it. But it's also like, This can't go on for too long, right? No, no,

Jan Young  19:14

yeah, yeah. Startup life is chaotic. And so you expect a little bit of chaos. But I think we are leading to another topic here. But I think we want to dig into that whole Chris Higgins posts in the first place,

Jeff  19:31

so I ended up here, here we go.

Jan Young  19:33

So okay, so that. So the premise is about a book I haven't read yet. So I have no right really to talk about it in a sense, but that's still like, we know what the

Jeff  19:43

you're still like 99% of people on LinkedIn and the internet that says, oh,

Jan Young  19:47

no, I like I think it's important to read the books. I always like to read the books. In fact, you know, anybody who gets on a call with me, I grabbed from like, I've got three or four stacks right here and I'm like, Oh, do you mean this book or do you mean that book For me, this book, I love the books. I, anyway, I will stop. But I do always have a lot of suggestions about books. Anyway, that to say, He's talking about a book he's talking about Frank is slow movements, but um, yeah, the CEO over at snowflake, which I love, because we're all snowflakes but so amp it up is the book I haven't read yet, but apparently he's trying to make the case is that you don't need the seeth leader and you don't need a CS department. Because in our ideal world here, everyone is CES.

Jeff  20:40

And it's like, everybody's all ces Jan.

Jan Young  20:44

Sure, well, so the thing is, like, first of all, GGR put out a call looking for customer centric CEOs. And I think that's lovely, I would love to see that list, I just don't have a lot of faith, that's a really long list. I just don't, I don't think you did, I there's too many people that I'm having to, you know, coach them through, like how to get beyond sale, as their focus, you know, and too many CEOs who only understand product, because, you know, product often, you know, a lot of CEOs come from that. And, and it's like, you know, it's and also, like, you know, Salesforce has this whole funnel that they've come up with, right, and it's almost scientific in terms of how to get the number of sales you need, you know, like what you do with marketing, you know, all the way down, you know, to like the SDRs and, you know, all the way down to the AES and like, produce a number so we don't have that for CES. And it's clear that we don't have it for CES because now the next thing you know, while we're barely getting started here and try and still go around and educate people we have, you know, good ol Frank saying, Oh, they don't need to exist at all. And you know, why? Why

Jeff  21:55

don't Frank fanboys are gonna be like, Oh my God, that's a good idea. We should probably get rid of our CS

Jan Young  21:59

department. Yeah, well, yeah. So yeah, ya know, everybody's gonna come on board and say, oh, yeah, just, you know, hard times. It's just the act that Yeah, but But first of all, like Salesforce created the need for CF anyway, because now you have failed at being hunters. Now, when I first got into Yes, I would technically failed account manager, except for my boss had done all of those initial contracts. And so I was always from day one, post sale. And then I would do renewals and stuff and sometimes do some new some new deals along the way. But, and I was incentivized in that way, right? So, but that's not how our sales teams are incentivized. That's not what their job is. Their job is to fully hunt. And then they drop it off at your doorstep. And it might be, you know, an ideal customer profile, or it might not how they're incentivizing.

Jeff  22:52

Can we have a kickoff tomorrow? That'd be great.

Jan Young  22:56

Exactly. Okay. But I don't know who they are. You've told me nothing about them. And you haven't entered any of the information in in Salesforce. So I have zero data. But yeah, anyway, so you know, but no idea what you're talking about. Yeah, exactly. So but So, okay, but going back, so so his premise is that you don't need Yes, because everybody throughout the organization should have some kind of, you know, responsibility for it. But now, Jason Lemkin, meanwhile, is writing a post, you can tell I'm like always checking out these posts, because I love I love the conversation, and I love the community. But his he had one a few weeks ago, making the case for a VP of freemium that you need a VP of free. And there's all these reasons, but his main point is, if you don't have somebody who's responsible for it, then it lingers. And the purpose of it, it doesn't exist within an organization. And that's my problem with Frank's book is then whose if everyone's responsible for it, then no one's responsible for it?

Jeff  24:00

Absolutely. Because what happens is, if you if I mean, I've seen people say, it's not what I'm getting paid for, I'm not getting bonused on retention, like I'm not gonna go fix that customer bug because I don't care. So what's what's take that to what we're saying here, when times get tough, and you've got to do the stuff that you get your bonus and your your salary and your performance reviews on. That's, that's nice. That's like mom and apple pie, but it doesn't work in the business world, because it's it gets dropped, because it's, it's like, every other harebrained thing that comes out of these initiatives with no honors and things like that, so

Jan Young  24:33

yeah, I mean, because you know, Kumbaya and all of that. We'd like everyone to just, you know, be a part of this ideal, but when you take a look at what the incentives are, or how are they trained before they got there, like I was talking to somebody recently who's trying to set up a professional services group. And part of the problem is, is now you have to have somebody over in on the tech side. to go and touch everything, look at everything identify, like, Is this really a three day, you know, project? Or is this like a three week project is a three month thing? Like, what is this, because they need to really be close enough because they have to go and get some dollars off of it right? Well, so now now the engineer, then they're going to get into it, dig into it, get all of that information, and then they're going to put it to the side and not do anything with it. Because now they've got the scope, and they're gonna go in price it, well, they don't like that, if they're in it and their heads in it, they want to go and get it done. But that doesn't get them paid. And they're giving away all these services for free. So, so a big part of that change management, just getting professional services up and running, is to help the engineers that are on the ground, who are going to be doing this buy into the idea of why it's good for them and their company, to do something that's antithetical to how they've been trained, and all of the legacy behavior that they have. Right? And so think about that. So, so yes, ideally, everybody cares about the customer. But how do you really get the whole organization to come on board and do their little piece of the pie. And then you're and then like, so many things can fall through the cracks, unless you have a point person who's responsible for the customer. And then you kind of already that is a DSM, and that is a TS group, even if you're calling it something else, you can call it technical account manager, you can say, Oh, this is professional services, because people only get this if they pay for it. We have paid DSM, the page death program, you know, whatever you want to call it. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and so anyway, that, that, that's why that, that whole thing, bugs me, and I'll read the book, but it's going to be hard. Because, you know, I'm gonna want to bless you because I'm origin not gonna read the book. Oh, you're not gonna get you know, you got to be responsible to like, okay, like, I don't go and and, and watch like political news that that is gonna piss me off and keep me up at night. But, but and then this book will probably piss me off and, and keep me up at night. But, um, but I think it's important to read it because because because we're out there in a world where we need to talk to the PEO.

Jeff  27:29

So, you first and you let me know if it's a vanity project or not. And if you feel well,

Jan Young  27:33

it probably is every book of vanity press. I mean, you have to like, you know, every company is a vanity project, because you have to believe in it enough to take all those hours to get what you think that you have to offer the world out on paper in a comprehensive cohesive now that's hard. Like, it's got you gotta have you gotta something's got to push you.

Jeff  27:58

Man, didn't you actually do some research and find out that snowflake actually does have what do they I mean, how

Jan Young  28:05

technical account managers, managers? Yeah, yeah.

Jeff  28:10

Oh, it's not the QA developer, randomly reaching out and saying, Hey, we're in New York.

Jan Young  28:17

Right? And so like, you know, and so there's gotta be someone who, and then you know, but also, when you take a look at it, when you take a look at it, who is their end user? You know, what is that persona? Well, it's a bunch of other tech geeks. And you know, which I although I've never had been trained to be an official tech geek, I like to be, you know, of that world. So I'll count myself. And I'm not saying anything bad about anybody, if somebody thinks of it that way. But anyway, so so you're talking to a bunch of people who are highly technical. So who are you going to have talking to them highly technical people who like to talk to others, because you have to at least talk to them, and who otherwise are responsible for that business relationship? Okay, so you can call it a technical account manager, or you can call it a CSM. If it's going to be an account manager, then you need to make that transition to caring about the success of that customer, which is the problem, why it's more account wide. In fact, I was talking to somebody recently, who's taking a team from account manager over to CES. And what is the transition in the mindset that you need to do so so you can call them account managers, but there's still a different mindset? Yeah,

Jeff  29:31

on that point, like, I've got a client and this thing about we were discussing earlier, well, then who does the renewals and then the salesperson like, Oh, I'll do the renewals as a good person. Like she's like, awesome, right? And like, I'll do I'm like, Are you going to do an EPR? Are you going to set 90 Day goals and keep going back to them and, you know, on and on, you know,

Jan Young  29:50

yeah, so Oh, no, I don't want to sign the cop.

Jeff  29:55

Yeah. You've got a big number to go Get right? Are you gonna you know, when time you're looking at your calendar, and there's a new sales thing that comes up? And that's when you're supposed to do I know which meeting happens and what doesn't. Right. And so here we go. So anyways, yeah, I really so you tie this together the amped up book is basically saying All for one, it's a community thing will take care of this, although in actuality, it's not what's happening. And then the other post is basically saying, if you don't have a direct owner, it will follow the crap and everybody will hate it. Right? Because it from that post from the from Jason that like, everybody hated the free product, right? Yeah, everybody got confused by it, marketing, hated it, support, hated it. And then shortly after he left, it was immediately hung out, you know, putting behind the barn.

Jan Young  30:57

And, and if you think about it, that's the two, no one understands. Yeah, no one understands the value of free no one.

Jeff  31:03

It's just it's because the initials B chose Jan, it's yes, it's

Jan Young  31:09

you know, when you think about it, though, like, you know, that that's where like you don't your your, your company will not get the value of a CS program or a free program, you know, if it's free, you know, in terms of how you go to market, the free, yeah, if if you don't understand what that value is, and what it achieves for your company, right now, if you do understand it, then you're all in and you will make someone accountable for you know, that post sales, part of the customer journey, and you would also make someone you know, responsible for free, because I thought that Jason made a really good point about that is that you learn a lot of things about your product, you build your product, so it can be self serviced, you know, and that is really valuable, you know, because then everybody has the opportunity to do the things that makes sense, in the way that they want, right? I just,

Jeff  32:10

I just have to raise the flag, though, like, my purview is enterprise b2b SaaS, and I do not see a lot of self service products in that regard. So so whenever I see self serve, and customer led growth, sorry, product, lead growth and stuff like that, I just basically kind of be fair push it to the side, because I just don't know what the customers.

Jan Young  32:34

So what I would say, though, is there are if nothing else, there are trainings, that there are ways in which like that can be self service, are the people who would make sense for right, like, there were end users or champions who are in the product using the product, and the way that they're going to learn it best is if you have like guides, you know, coming up and showing them the way through and that's an

Jeff  32:57

LMS with a certain you can call that self

Jan Young  33:00

service, there are times when they need to just figure out how to do something, you know. And, and they, they don't want to like Wait 24 hours to hear back from the support team. Right. And it's so having that kind of stuff available to them. So they can figure it out easily is, you know, it's a good thing to do. Absolutely. Sometimes, even with complex onboarding, that are b2b, there are parts of it, that like, especially if you're working with, you know, and your percentage or like it, you know, or something like that. They want to just read it, get the information go and like implement it. And then they'll check in with you like, oh, you believe you need this done by Friday, but I can't because I got to do these other things. So they'll coordinate with you, right? But they want it they need to go off and do their thing. And they just need the information so they can go off and do their part, right? There's a lot of things like that, that, that I think self service is a gets a bad rap. Because it's not always just end to end filter that you necessarily need to employ. And then the other thing, just thinking about the persona, there are people who, like if you're if your end users are like salespeople, time is money being on the phone, that sort of thing. That is money. So if you're trying to do everything for them by calling them up, what do you do? And you're never going to reach them? That's you taking money away from them. That's not a good customer journey. Right? And so you want to make things easy for them. And in that respect, like that's all I would say about oh, no, no, that's

Jeff  34:36

a good yeah, just as I said, it's a good perspective there that there's learnings from those foundational enter your credit card here, and then you're good to go. And yeah,

Jan Young  34:45

because we're not all plg product lead growth has its play. Yeah, but it's not all that. Yeah,

Jeff  34:54

I heard you're you've got a meeting coming up. So I want to be cognizant of that. So I do I do I'd like to wrap everything up with it sounds like book reading but I'm not quite sure like the one What was your either like your your pandemic hobby or your the thing that you love to do when you're not geeking out in Slack forums about customer success?

Jan Young  35:15

Um, no, I'm you know, I I love I'd love getting on like the Zoom call. I guess it's really it's bad baking

Jeff  35:25

bread hiking.

Jan Young  35:27

Oh. Oh gosh. Yeah, so I like doing pickleball Oh,

Jeff  35:32

that's that's a sport. Oh, I'll bring my racket out. See what

Jan Young  35:37

came. Yeah. Oh my god. That's awesome. That wine tasting hiking. I just came back. I'm also doing my sister lives on the lake and we got to go kayaking. But I'm I am a wimp when it comes to kayaking. I'm not doing like the rough waters and stuff. Like I like the smooth water

Jeff  35:57

tranquil. Do do some yo guy here. Absolutely.

Jan Young  36:02

But yeah, so there's that. So but yeah, and then obviously I like to, you know, geek out about about CF that is. But I My My husband actually keeps me fairly well balanced in that regard. He asked me what time of day it is. And are you ever going to come downstairs from the office? Like,

Jeff  36:20

I'm familiar with that set the sentiment? Absolutely. So let's do this. I know we'll do this again. And we'll also spend all next week geeking out on CSS. Stop record will wind wind down I'll make sure you get to your next meeting. So thanks so much. Sounds great.