GSD Podcast - Career Transitions in Professional Services with Andrew Fink

Jeff is joined by Andrew Fink. Andrew is an exceptional Professional Services leader that started his career at the premier consulting groups of the day - Andersen, CTP and then grew his skills at Met Life before we met at Endeca. Andrew discusses the differences in roles and the difficult decisions that we all have to face when growing (and shrinking) companies. We then transitioned into discussing both of our recent career moves and the thought process behind those changes

Transcript:

Jeff  01:08

All right, everyone, welcome back. This is Jeff and I had a few weeks off from the podcast because I had switched jobs. Which we actually get into a lot we kind of Andrew and I enjoy Frank, who's a good friend of mine. We were kind of buddies and arms over the last few months talking about different places we were getting asked to go interview, do we want to go in certain directions. And you know, when we talked about this post show, I don't think we weren't sure if each other wanted to talk about this during during the interview. But it was basically art and podcasts. But it was basically sometimes when you take a position, and you are where we are in our careers, there is this other thought of well, if this doesn't work out, how does this position set me up for the next position. So in the end of the day is if you can do good work, you can do good work, and people will recognize that. But we did get into a lot of really interesting concepts. Because Andrew and I kind of worked at some of the same places that we've had similar guests on the show like Acquia, and some other places. In deca, we kind of took a little bit of a right turn and in really focused on the sort of career change aspects for this episode. So you know, in terms of the gap, I had a couple of weeks off, where I was focusing on the family and wrapping things up in my previous job getting ramped up on the new one, which is great. So anybody's interested in that I'll happy to expand on that later. But to sit back and enjoy Andrew is an amazing guy. I think I mentioned this during the during the conversation. But when Andrew came aboard, I was just super impressed with him, you sort of is what I envisioned a lot of consultants to be and really, really learned a lot. very even keeled but open and honest guy, so I hope you really enjoy it. And we'll chat later. thing called I would say second I hit record. Here we go. Okay, Andrew, you can hear me. I can hear you. I can hear you. So joining me today is Andrew Fink, a long, long, longtime friend of mine, yet another indeco alumni, but the great thing about a decade, it's like it's like going to college and then everybody else goes somewhere else afterwards. Right. And so there's just so many people that have different experiences. And the other note, I was going to tell people to kick this off as if we don't cover too much personal stuff is because Andrew and I went to go meet at the Marriott and go record this in this really cool location. And they were playing some smooth jazz which would have been in the background the whole time. So we just decided to go eat food for an hour and a half out everything, cooking some OCD fitness and nutrition stuff and kids college which may sweat bullets immediately start coming out in my head and stuff like that. So, so welcome, Andrew.

Andrew Fink  04:18

Thank you very much, Jeff. Yeah,

Jeff  04:20

you know, I don't know if I've said this to you before in person but I just remember when you were hired and or the first time we met I felt like it was the first time I had met like a real consultant at in DECA like I was like, Who is this guy? It was, you know, Andrew comes walking in tan with the slicked back hair and you know, look, you're right in the eye and give you a good handshake and just super knowledgeable about like, you know how to actually talk to customers and be a good consultant and everything like that. So you know, that's when I was like, well, we're stepping up our level here.

Andrew Fink  04:58

Great perspective when it growing But growing up with German parents that sort of hard handshake and look in the eye was ingrained, ingrained in me.

Jeff  05:07

Just try it again, you know? Too far. So, you know, it's speaking of like coming walking into in Dhaka, which at that time was I don't know to what we're talking 2006. So we started getting some good traction and everything. But still, we had a lot to learn in terms of like being a real company, for you to come walking in with some of that presence. And that been there before, but not cocky. I just want to just be clear about that. Walk me through the background that got you there.

Andrew Fink  05:40

Great. Thanks, Jeff. So, you know, I actually spent right before that I spent five years at MetLife. So very different world. For me, after spending a good chunk of my career doing pure consulting with deploying CRM ERP from large scale stuff, I kind of went to the dark side and joined MetLife, as a guy that ran a couple of divisions, first in Boston, and moved out to New Jersey with with MetLife actually moved with the family. So very different world where you're managing a p&l. And I always joke with folks that my job was to basically manage a team, plan a budget, and then for the next nine months, explain why the budget was off. So usually, it was, it was literally a budget exercise. And, you know, had lots of customers on the business side of the world. But it was just a different world. And so I ended up spending five years at MIT, but realize that in order, you know, it's not an organization that you want to, you want to spend a long time in your career, but just ultimately, because I felt like the people that got promoted, there were the ones that kind of came in, headed out of the desk, and never really tried to implement change. Everyone just sort of focused on their neighborhood, no one really wanted to focus on other neighborhoods. And it was really difficult in my role to deploy technology across across multiple groups. So I ended up I ended up coming into a DACA. Kind of a smaller role than I probably was anticipating. And it was I was running. I was running. It was running a region. Yeah. So you know, that was my MetLife was my first experience, we're sort of having a really look for a gig that was in a completely different arena for me for from consulting in large scale to

Jeff  07:21

software. Yeah. Yeah. And that that message, just, I mean, going from MetLife, which is huge, and process heavy. And everything else like that, coming into a decade has been kind of a big shock for where we were at the time. So

Andrew Fink  07:35

Oh, for sure. And, you know, working with some interesting personalities in New York, that, you know, it was it was it was a real good entree into into the services world of software.

Jeff  07:47

Yeah. And you you're in federal two, right? You were dealing with all those guys. I just totally forgot about that whole thing. Yeah, we had a federal practice.

Andrew Fink  07:55

Initially, it was it was it was the regional world. And then I think, late in the late in the game for me before, right when Oracle was about to acquire, practice with with Jeff Murphy, because we ended up having to focus on that a little bit with the new with the new sort of twist in the technology.

Jeff  08:13

Yeah, that's right. And that's a foreign world to me. I only dabbled in that a little bit. And we did a little bit more of the public sector stuff when I was there. But I do remember interviewing one guy who was coming in to be sort of a consultant role. And I was like, oh, so what's the toughest he'd been doing? He'd been working for one of our security clearance customers. And and I was in he wanted to work for some like, Oh, so that's great. Well, what's the toughest thing you've bumped in so far? And he's like, Well, somebody came in from the field with a bullet through their hard drive. And I had to get all the data off of that. I was like,

Andrew Fink  08:52

Yeah, we actually I interviewed a guy who is he was working at at Gitmo in Cuba. So commuting to Guantanamo Bay and was part of the team on the analytic side that would interview interview folks. And how are you

Jeff  09:08

kidding me? I never knew Oh, my God.

Andrew Fink  09:11

Yeah, it was really cool. So he only be able to fly back to Miami every I don't know a few months. We were trying to get them on and DACA was on the DACA team, but he didn't want to leave his little cushy job at Guantanamo Bay.

Jeff  09:23

Oh my God, that's crazy. So talk to me and you know, we chat a little bit beforehand because this next thing is something that like I've never done which is funny because we'll talk about the whole utility player thing a little bit after this but talk to me about the transition to real decoy which I'm gonna be jealous I always wanted you guys to hire me but you guys never win but I'm just like, that seems like such a cool thing. But no, I was a breakup Don't worry, I was talking with but in the sorry if it sounds like massive thunder, I think somebody is pulling a sofa upstairs is the pearls working at home but The I'm early in the morning can't come up with the industry classifications but I'm working at a professional services company that is specializing in installing another company software. Which to me, I've always tried to line those up with my company's because it seems like you're just getting leads passed over to you left and right. And you just kind of you know, do what you said, which is put your budget out there, hire some people and make it happen. Right. So that's right.

Andrew Fink  10:28

So what was interesting, so, you know, DECA gets get bought by Oracle, decide not it's not the right move for me to jump into that big company. But I knew that Oracle, in the broadest sense is a software company not really a services company. So they partner, right? Yeah, real, real decoy ahead, invested in 50 or 60. Folks just focused on deploying commerce and, and some of the other technologies within DECA. So I reached out to the one of the founders, Richard Isaac, and we talked about, hey, you've got a great practice in Canada. You've got some some folks in Jamaica. But what if I, what if I join in and build out the US and and your UK practice? Again, with the focus being, let's grab a lot of these customers that we were that we had an ad in DECA that probably don't want to work directly with Oracle? In some cases, they can't. And let's build a practice on that. And so we actually came to an agreement. And I told her for a couple of months and then started started hiring folks in the US. And we got we got American Express. Oh, we got some really big brands, right. So Home Depot, a couple of car guys that auto, auto parts guys brought in some really great, great, I guess call them the next stage and leadership. So Jim Richmond, Dave Werth. Oh, yeah. Europe, Sean Smith, we had a really good, great team, we scaled it to probably, I don't know, 16, or 17, people over the course of three or four years, had a few million in revenue. And it was it was going well, until I think what actually happens in this world, when, at some point, Oracle will take a technology and just becomes part of their standard world. And it no longer you no longer have that you're no longer differentiated from the other consulting companies, you're just another one in the list. So no longer were we getting the call from the sales folks directly. It was more like, hey, put your name in the hat, we may call you.

Jeff  12:21

God. So I actually I didn't finish on that. I didn't realize they had their own sort of retail practice. Before that.

Andrew Fink  12:29

There was about 50, folks, but all in Canada, they had a large focus on federal in Canada as well. Okay, their Department of Defense. And so we ended up also diving into federal, in the UK in the US trying to get into that market. And that was the other technology from indeco. So it wasn't commerce. Yeah, it's more than the BI. So, you know, we kind of went into two places. And it was, it was great, you know, we had to we had to build infrastructure to support you know, all the processes support a new consultant company, but leveraged the Oracle environment sales folks to help us close deals and then our relationships with, with our customers from a DECA so it was a really, it was a great, great way for me to understand learn on how to build a consulting company. Yeah, not necessary from scratch, because we weren't funding ourselves. But really,

Jeff  13:12

yeah, a little bit of a cushion. So it was it was

Andrew Fink  13:15

great. And, you know, it is also It was eye opening in how difficult that is to scale in a sole proprietary where, you know, sort of a one or two investors no outside investment, couldn't scale the same way. And at some point, we started running into a wall financially.

Jeff  13:32

Actually, that's that's I'm glad to start talking about that because I was going to ask you so what was it sounds like a great gig. And I was wondering what the everybody's got pains and difficulties is that sort of what it was it was just having being bootstrapped and kind of John services dollars in and services dollars out, you will

Andrew Fink  13:48

and and the mothership, right, so we were so reliant on Oracle, and as soon as they started turning their eyes away from us, you know, things started to dry up. And so you can only go go back to your customer so many times before you got to find new new customers. And I think that was a challenge and a few of us started seeing the writing on the wall when when, you know became commerce for for Oracle no longer in DECA and ATG, right. So then all of a sudden, we're playing against the large ATG players. Same with the other analytics, it became more big data. And so I think we realized at some point, we weren't going to be different. And we were too small to be playing against some of these folks. And so that's where a bunch of us decided, you know, working back with the founder, we decided it was it made more sense to sort of go Go on, go back outside and start something new. And that's where I

Jeff  14:36

ended planning. Are they are they still around? Or they are

Andrew Fink  14:39

but they're small Canada in Jamaica. That's really

Jeff  14:42

Yeah, Jamaican market, you know, it's,

Andrew Fink  14:44

well, it visited, that was the worst. Jamaica was there offshore and you're talking about a war zone, not not a good place to visit.

Jeff  14:54

So can we get into the offshoring thing a little bit because I didn't realize you would touch that and you know, I do A lot of that. I did not know. So Jamaica, what's the quality in like standard of work that you're used to from those resources?

Andrew Fink  15:11

Yeah. Well, just to put in perspective, is the answer the question? Yeah, they drive to work and you know, they can smoke pot on our way there. So it's a very different environment. You know, whereas when I had when I went MetLife,

Jeff  15:24

that's called being a millennial. And

Andrew Fink  15:28

when I was at MetLife, we had on our 60 folks offshore in India and cognizant taught me and yeah, and you know, you could you can you come to a certain standard in terms of how you operate there. It was difficult in in Kingston, I think just because in Jamaica, just because it's a very different personality, but a lot of these guys had really good tech degrees. You know, I think there was a subset that worked hard, but were were a few of us really had a hard time, as you know, there wasn't that commitment to go over and above when you needed to get get stuff done.

Jeff  15:57

Yeah. Well, you I'm sorry, to keep focusing on on Real McCoy. But I, I, in my opinion, are sort of, you know, since all the times we talk, this is the job that you had where you had to focus a little bit more on sales. Is that correct?

Andrew Fink  16:12

Yeah. So as as the GRU were in a bag? There was a lot of that, you know, and the good news, I had a couple guys who are good at selling. But yeah, it was it was sales and delivery, you know, in the earliest sense of customer success, for me, in the sense it was, you know, it was coming up with a plan to deal with our existing customers and upselling and cross selling, you know, we couldn't lose brands, we had to keep American Express and some other ones happy. Yeah. And then also, you know, continuing to grow. So it was, it was definitely sales and delivery together as the GM.

Jeff  16:41

Did you enjoy selling? Like, did you feel like a slimy sales guy? Or did you? Or did you have people underneath you? Were you were you actually out, like pitching and trying to win the business and things like that.

Andrew Fink  16:52

So it was a little of both. But I've never, I never felt like we had, we had a couple folks that were a little on the slimy side in terms of sales approach. You know, whereas I feel like some of the folks in the on the US and UK team like Mickey in the UK was fabulous, was fabulous. Right? So you came in with a different perspective. It's, it's how do we get additional functions to other use cases, other groups versus, you know, trying to sell smoking mirrors or whatever. But in we had a couple of strong sales folks in in Richard Isaac the lead. So yeah, so that's, I think it was kind of a combo, but we never approach it as pure sales. It was more, you know, extensions,

Jeff  17:32

right? And you're in, you know, as talking about this vaginas day, but like, you should feel like you're trying to help them like you're trying to help your organization not like, what's what's find the easiest way to get you guys to buy something. So we can, you know, just go make some more money. So that's right. So interesting, like, awkward is there, I kind of want to approach the awkward in the Select stuff, kind of after we talked about real decoding what you did and deca, this concept we're talking about, you called it being the Brock Holt of professional services, which I wear that hat as well to where do you feel it was when it happened? Or it was more than a decade beforehand, where you were just sort of getting lots of different professional services experiences, but not staying on one path and becoming like, Oh, I am the master of ops or things like that.

Andrew Fink  18:25

That's right, well, DECA had three or four roles. And then then you had real decoy in there as a new version of supporting a deca, and then obviously, a completely different thing when I joined Acquia. And this technical account management group. So, you know, I just felt like, it's for me, it's about leading a team, you know, building supporting processes. And ultimately, I think, for you and I, we've been really leading customer engagement, right for so long that it was really around, how do we support and grow enterprise customers? Regardless of what role it is?

Jeff  18:57

Yeah. Because that integrity, you know, I keep telling people what they didn't have a air quote here, customer success or account management for a long time, it was us it was in services. And its people if they wasn't stuck before, you couldn't implement that software without professional services. It just was not something that you could do is just very technical and hard to do. So that's right. That's not the sales stuff. But like when it's super hard to install this stuff, and like, Yeah, but it works really good. So

Andrew Fink  19:33

what was what what I find interesting about today, when you sort of look at the marketplace is we're talking about the sort of generalist versus specialist and I think for most of my career apps, I've sort of been in the gray area where you kind of have to hop to where you need to hop and you have to, you have to be able to dance when when when you don't know all the answers. And I think because I started in pure consulting for the first 10 years, I kinda was comfortable in gray. And whereas today, I feel like there's a lot Got a black or white, right? So I just do ops or I just do account management and or I'm Justin services. I feel like you and I can kind of came from a different breed where we, we were expected to do a lot of different things you want to put me at first grade from from your third grade. I don't care. Yeah, I'll figure it out.

Jeff  20:15

Yeah, like, Hey, Jeff, we need you to go do you know, just focus on getting partners on board? And for a year, like, Okay, sounds great. Yeah, tell me where to? Where do I stand on a stand over here. That's great. So the challenge that we've talked about, so just so people know, Andrew and I both have switched jobs in the last month or two. And we would get together. And we would just talk about some of the frustrating things that we bump into, sometimes at the same company on friendly competition. And I feel like we could spend a really long time talking about that. But I'll try and do a little bit of a structured way. The one thing I know that I remember, were breakfast, and the look on your face when I said it was like, but Andrew, I'd love to hire you. But I need somebody who's who's got who's run also run a customer support group. So unfortunately, I needed to go find somebody more. So I know exactly what you're thinking here. Right? And it's like, Well, I'm just gonna bring a director on board to run that, right, like in but there's this thinking about the specializations. And and like, oh, wait, I don't see you've got for me, it was like, Oh, you've never had customer success. So, so sorry, we can't hire you at a customer success role. I'm like, Are you fucking kidding me? Like,

Andrew Fink  21:35

so? Yeah. And also scale. So you know, you manage up to 60. But I need you to manage 100. And for me, it's like, it just just changes the structure. But it doesn't change their approach to the process. Right. So me that that's pretty short, short sighted for these companies. And I get it if they're trying to go from 100 people to obviously you're managing 600, right? Like rigs, these managing huge organization. Right? I totally get you want that scale. But to go from 50 to 100. It's not that big a deal. Yeah. But I think what I'm finding is a lot of companies, they have their little checkbox, and Oh, okay. You haven't done customer success. Jeff. Oh, gosh, that's, but you know, you've done services. Great. But we need more than that. And I and I talked to tons of companies in the last two or three months where, you know, it was it was that I felt like, you know, I hit nine out of 10 boxes, but it didn't hit that 10th. And therefore, I was I was out of the mix.

Jeff  22:25

Yeah. What's your what's your standard objection to one one of those things come up? Right. I'm just curious, because I had my own on one that I do. I think

Andrew Fink  22:33

you've said it. So you know, okay, I haven't done support other than, you know, managing a small team at select? Well, you're right, I'd bring in a pretty seasoned director that can scale, it knows how to deploy Zendesk and understands all the bells and whistles of comfortable with a seven by 24 model, right, you know, those people throughout their position, that's my first hire. And that's what I did select, I hired Duke and Duke was great. So he's going to take on that sport function. And guess what he was one of one the scale that we brought into partnership again. So he did all that work. And I would work with him on, you know, how to make sure both I understood, but also how do we get this to the next level? Right? It's, it's,

Jeff  23:11

it's you, you hire somebody good, good enough that you can trust them. And then you're there as like, their cover are somebody to talk to somebody that they can go into the office and events if they want to. But just in general, like you're an expert here, like, I'm not gonna go by, you know, my O'Reilly book on how to run services or support, it's something on your customer success. You bring in the people and you manage them. At least that's the way I look at it.

Andrew Fink  23:39

Yeah. Oh, for sure. And Jeff, I can tell you the first two or three months afford Duke started was uncomfortable, right. So I didn't know a lot of answers. But at the same time, I think we're both smart enough to be able to, you know, pick up stuff and, and ask for help. But you know, it did take a little longer to get things deployed. But once you get that person in place, I think it's fine. And the same for you with renewals. I think you bring in a person that understands the process and understands how to create that structure. I don't think you're the guy, you know, who's going to be leading the account management, you know, individuals for the long term, right, until you get that experience.

Jeff  24:13

Right. Right. Right. So you find has that been the most frustrating part, especially when you know, like, you know that they're wrong, right? And it's just so it's funny, I bumped into a situation where the organization was like, 20, right? It was like 20 people. And in the CFO was basically like, well, in three years, we want to be over 100. I'm like, great. That's, that's a very scalable model. And they're like, but you haven't managed to 100 people. I'm like, that's correct. But you're at 20 right now. And the guy I think you even told me, this is the guy. The guy that manages 100 To 200 to 500 people. He doesn't know how to manage 20 people.

Andrew Fink  24:53

Oh, yeah. And I see it. I started a couple of different places, right. I see. Saw that one. They grew so fast. I could tell all the people in there were over their head. But But I also look back at a situation where you got a guy like Chris comprado, who joins toasted 80 people. And now he's got whatever 1800 He never led firstly was never a CEO good for see papa. And those guys were given a chance. But also, you know, at some point, he's way over his skis in terms of his experience, but but gosh, look at a smart guy, who can who can figure things out, he could bring in the right leadership and manual and others and all of a sudden, boom, he's got a team, he's getting close to 2000 people, you know what, he's still CEO of the company. Good. Good for them for sticking with it.

Jeff  25:35

Yeah. And I think, you know, I can't remember where, where I heard it, but it was, you know, hire people for the job, you think that they can do, right? Like, can this person do that job? That's what I was basically would say to those things, which is, I can handle this job, like, you know, oh, well, you've never worked with virtualization. And I'm like, did you know how difficult some of the things that I'm like, Oh, also, do you want your SVP or chief success chief Services Officer or whatever you want to call it? Do you want him you know, down in the weeds diagnosing a system failure? Because of a memory issue? I'm like, No, so crazy.

Andrew Fink  26:12

Well, and I also think, Jeff, as as this world is more from pure services to, you know, we want to be a SAS success. It's become very confusing for hiring CEOs and CEOs to understand what it is they need, because it is a relatively new role in the last four or five years and to find people with that experience, where they've managed all the, you know, all their checkmarks is difficult.

Jeff  26:33

Yeah, that that's good. So, on that note, you don't have to sort of, say the company, but where are you moving to? But describe the sort of role that you're going to? And what's that, and how that's kind of excite you?

Andrew Fink  26:49

Well, you know, another great example. So I interviewed for a lot of the sort of Chief Customer VP success roles. I had probably five or six in the hopper, a couple that were more under the CRO and others that were directly the CEO. But there was an opportunity, literally, I interviewed with, with a company called Data robot, which I'm happy to talk through. And Greg, the initial conversation was, again, I strongly suggest everyone who's going through this process to leverage their network. So in my case, Shawn Smith, who work for me at real decoy, is that data robot, he said, Hey, there's a hurricane like crazy, I'll throw your resume in the pot, my resume in the greenhouse internally. And he put me like, Director of ops role. And so I got my first interview with him was as director of ops thing, which wasn't a good fit, but it got me in the system. Yeah. And so my first conversation was guy, Paul, Paul's, again, not a great fit, but you know, we'll put you in the system. And I sort of wrote off data robot as never going to see them again. And then about four weeks later, three weeks later, the CEO called me directly and said, Hey, I saw your resume, I've got this interesting opportunity. And so just like our experience, and sort of playing in gray, and being a generalist, this ad actually helped in this case, because he, he was looking to build a new group, that kind of being incubated under under the COO, where they're going to go from selling pure platform, to actually building out solutions and use cases. And guess what, you and I spent the last 13 years 15 years building out use cases for the indexes of the world and the awkward of the world where they can't sell a platform. And so he wants to build a team from sales through delivery, just like my general manager experience a real decoy, to actually build out these solutions and sell into the market. They feel like they can make more money, what an interesting opportunity, and it's no longer just about, you know, post sale or pre sale, it is a full and full and growth. So it's gonna be really interesting.

Jeff  28:43

That's awesome. No, that's great. And there's, there's like all sorts of, you know, morals and, you know, inspirational messages, you can post on them, it's kind of like, you waited for the right thing, right. In, in you also took a chance and said, I'm gonna, you know, go in and talk to people and and show them that, you know, I know my stuff and that I can adapt and learn things and do things and and there are smart organization that recognizes that and weren't just looking to check the box of, you know, the, the wreck that they put out there, and it's a great story. It's absolutely

Andrew Fink  29:19

refreshing the fact that you find a guy like the CFO is chris Christie, man, he's, you know, totally gets it right. Totally. You get you have to hire smart people, and that the smart people may do different different roles throughout their their career at data robot. So, you know, my lesson, I think, over the last couple of months was, you know, after 25 plus years in the market, no, really one, take the time to find the right opportunity. Leverage your network and I sent the big thank you out yesterday, because I felt like you know, the network. I can't do it. You can't do it without your friends, family and your network. And that's huge. And the other thing is, I think we all forget about we go from job to job or From career to career, we just were always working. And just to take that time to have a couple of months to spend time with my graduating daughter, or whatever it is. Yeah, it was, it was a huge opportunity for me in the family to actually just sort of get grounded again, before jumping back in the world. And I think people we forget about that we forget to take time between jobs and really, you know, sort of Kevin get re energized.

Jeff  30:24

I'm just laughing because I took like, three days.

Andrew Fink  30:27

Right, you jumped right in.

Jeff  30:29

But that was because basically, it was like, Look, we have this pitch. It's like a multimillion dollar deal in you would own the relationship if we get it. So it'd be a good move. And I'm like, no, absolutely. Like I would, I would feel better about knowing more. And being part of that meeting, than just kind of walking into it say, Well, what do we sign up for? So that's pretty funny, though. I wanted to take the time. And then I wound up like taking like a week of not doing too much. But that's great, especially since you did have a daughter that was going through the graduation and getting ready to go off to college and everything like that. So that's, that's fantastic. So and how much how much? Did you do a lot of Iron Man training in the

Andrew Fink  31:11

I did all that stuff, you know, didn't help but it did all that stuff. Actually, just, I think, you know, there's other stuff that your your honey do list, right, your checklist that it starts building up and, and to some degree, just not, I still got up and went to work my do I work out come back. But yeah, I just found that, you know, having time to, to just kind of figure out what you want to do next and how to go after it is important, because I like you have just jumped from job to job. And a lot of times I jumped for, for relationships. In other cases it was because it was it was mandated, right, there were some more situations, and that's going to happen in careers. But take, you know, and I saw this on LinkedIn the other day, it's like, I actually had the first time in my career, I had the opportunity of time, and I haven't had that so long. I think we just forget about it. Hey, can we

Jeff  31:59

just get into that a little bit deeper? Because it's something I haven't really talked about before, which is, you said take the time to figure it out? Like is that your classic? Like pro con list? Is that like a chart? Or is that just like handwriting? Like, did you ever process? Are you just kind of sad about it all? I'm just as

Andrew Fink  32:16

well, you know, obviously we we all think about what we want to do next. And it's part of the process of jumping into looking for another job and having the resume updated last sort of stuff. And this was different. And I did have my, quote, opportunity. So the comparison was funny about that, as I started getting further down the process with a couple companies and you and I intersected and one of them. You know, I had

Jeff  32:40

just because I didn't get a job because my brother work there, which is

Andrew Fink  32:43

yeah, it's Yeah. So, but I found myself doing a comparison. But what was interesting in different about this time versus others, I had a list of six or seven and I was deep and all of them had multiple meetings in each and I felt like they're going well, all of a sudden, they would drop off. And that found you know, my list of six went to 10 and then dropped to like four. So it was a really interesting process. And I found that it the process is taking longer. It's not the markets great but it's more competitive. Like more people have customer success on their resume, whatever it is. They're also, you know, they want people to they want to be able to have enough candidates. So the process takes longer. But I wanted to make sure I was jumping into the right situation. So I sort of had my own things to my own checklist of okay, do they have the money? did have the right leadership? You know, is there the right product in the right market opportunity? Otherwise, you're stepping in the same situation? So yeah, I had my own sort of checklist. I also had time where I could just read a book, which I haven't done in a while.

Jeff  33:43

Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, that's, that's awesome. And I sent you a suggestion, I absolutely. You know, David Goggins can't hurt me or something like that I did the audiobook on that, which I suggest for everybody just to see if they can push themselves a little bit more. You did touch on one thing I just wanted to add a couple points to which is the researching the company, and in as much about you interviewing the company as much as them interviewing you. And don't be afraid, especially if you're talking to startups. Ask about you know, when when would When do they run out of money, right? When just flat rate when is that going to happen? How is how What's your relationship with your investors and all those things because I have joined companies that ran out of cash like in two months, because I didn't ask what their what their stability aspects were and also poke around take a look at the company you know, the executive team, look at the other places where they've worked in do your research on them and then look at the investors. I think that's big I don't know if you took a look at your investors day robot, you know, they're they're very good, but, but all that's a big picture, and it's what's drives that company and it's what their DNA is, and I've I have not taken interviews just because I looked on Glassdoor. And then I looked at, you know, the profiles of people, and I'm just basically like, No, this is this would not be a good match.

Andrew Fink  35:10

Well, and get to that point, you know, I ended up with two different Vista equity companies. And in each case, I had to take multiple tests. The last one, I literally took three tests, one was a timed test, and, you know, it's a very different leadership style for VISTA than than other organizations. And they're actually quite, I'll use the word intrusive in terms of the, in the on the board, they, what how they lead is very much hands on, and so that you have to be aware of that walking in as a leader in organization.

Jeff  35:39

Yeah, it's crazy. And I know, I had a friend who's, you know, general counsel, it's very successful companies. And she went to go, you know, it's kind of like, oh, you know, maybe that's not quite the scale of the company I want to go to, but they're doing a good thing. So she went into this company, with a sort of a purpose built, you know, Mission type of attitude about it, like, I'd like to go help this company, because they're doing good things. And they gave her one of those tests that they give every, you know, kid out of college and things like that. And it was, you know, and you know, after 1520 years, some of those tests are hard for us if we're not used to taking those types of things. And immediately, he's, you know, soured her opinion of the company. And, you know, the while we judge every employee, and they often go through these things, it's like, bring some common sense into your hiring practices every once in a while, right? It's just not great point. Yeah. So. So that's great. And I'm glad you're Did you feel like you're also taking on stuff that you've not done before? So this is a learning experience for you as well.

Andrew Fink  36:43

Yeah. So you know, a big part of this role is to also oversee a lot of the customer facing data scientists. So typically, that falls under an engineering function, and that's that, at least that selected was under the head of engineering, though we interface directly a lot, that's a, that's a different skill set, right? So you're gonna have sales folks who are driven by numbers, you're gonna have put delivery folks that are driven by successful delivery, and making sure customers are happy and successful. But the data scientists are a different breed. So I think that's going to be a little different. You know, in, in my mind, that's what's gonna require a couple of different personality types from my own and on the leadership style to make sure they're supportive as well. Yeah.

Jeff  37:26

Speaking on the leadership stuff, I did want to just touch on a couple of things, which I do in a lot of these conversations with people just to see what their, their philosophy on it is, as well. You know, I'm big believer of hierarchical organizations. So a couple of like, quick bullet questions, like, as a manager, what is the upper limit of direct reports that you should have?

Andrew Fink  37:50

As soon as I start getting close to 10? I'm worried. So I'd love to say that, yeah, you know, seven to eight is seven,

Jeff  37:56

sevens, like when you need to start opening racks, right?

Andrew Fink  38:00

Because it becomes, you know, and especially if you're doing weekly one on ones, and over the side meetings, it becomes a lot. And so when I, I think it's select, I had at one point, it was like 12, or 13, until we could bring in some leadership, you know, sort of structure too much. You need to you need to be less than 10, in my opinion,

Jeff  38:16

right? If you're doing even half hour, one on ones, and you've got 10 people, right, there goes, you know, the quarter your week, those usually go longer than that, then you've got the random drop ins, where it's like, Hey, can I just ask you a quick question? Or can I come in and bitch about something, which is what you need to do as a manager is provide the support on that. And then there's, you know, the other question is, is this really I see this in, I see it more of a problem in development managers more than like project managers and things like that. How do you where do you draw the line? Or what's your philosophy on the I'm a great developer, now I want to manage people, because we see that happen a lot. And sometimes it's a terrible move.

Andrew Fink  38:59

That's such a hard one, I had, you know, the big decision I had to make. And it didn't, I didn't actually get to finish it, that select was okay, I've got some really good engaged managers. And a couple of them have thrown their hat in the ring to lead the agent managers. So do take one existing and promote, which I always believe and like you want to, you want to get people to keep moving through an organization if it means that lead your your team, or hire from the outside with some of the experience of leading this more seasoned group, you know, in the couple folks that threw their name in the in the ring of they weren't quite ready. So that would have been difficult conversations. Because I didn't think taking someone who who's just done the function without leading the function. Plus, the more it's a more difficult scenario when you're taking someone who's got peers and all of a sudden they're there, they're the boss. So you know, I was debating about whether to go external or not because of that reason. You know, I think we do that in sales as well folks hit their quota two years in a row and all of a sudden we throw them in a managerial position. And it's just not it's not necessary the right answer people Have to be they have to be, you know, the leading is hard, right? And managing is hard and it requires, you know, there's some people point blank say, I don't like to deal with the bullshit, well, then that's probably not a good role for you.

Jeff  40:12

Right? Right. And you know what, I've never seen work well, either. Now that you've said that is that whole thing of like, oh, well, I'm, I'm gonna be on a team with them. And I'm gonna manage them and kind of judge them. But I'm not going to do the review. And I'm like, Well, you know, you can stick your ankle in the water, right? Like, it's, I don't like dealing with the bullshit. I don't want to deal with reviews. I don't want to have hard conversations when somebody's being a jerk. And I'm like, well, then you're not a leader. Right? You're right. So so that's great. i For I know, we're bumping up against the hour. And I want to make sure we touch on a personal stuff that you wanted to cover. Just for people know, Anders, a big Iron Man, I always done that. When did you start doing the Ironman stuff?

Andrew Fink  41:01

So I did my first, my first smaller ones back in? Oh, 405. I was right before in DECA. And then I really started getting into it. And in DECA. And you know, I think my first Ironman was 2012. And then another one in 17. And those uh, that's it for me, for the half. So I've been doing that kind of a couple Half Ironman in the years, probably since 2006. So yeah, it's been been fun. You're always raising for charity as well, too, right? Like I did for the big one. So for the marathon and for the Ironman I did, I felt like, if I'm going to commit to that level, then I need to, I need to commit to raising money. You know, the one time I didn't I trained for Ironman, Maryland. i It was pure selfish. And I ended up well, I ended up walking away from from the race, because it was it was too dangerous with flooding conditions, etc. But I don't think I would have walked away if I had raised money.

Jeff  41:54

Oh, that's interesting point. Like, you know, you see the people who dropped dead when they're running for a cause, like my mom died of cancer. I'm gonna run for the Jimmy funders and stuff like that, where they just keep pushing, and they keep pushing, because they're doing it for something. I walked away from a Spartan timeout, because I would have I would have, yeah, it would not have been a good situation. Like, it was like 110 degrees that day. No, you do it for safety reasons. Yeah. So that's great. Anything else that you wanted to sort of cover or talk about? Well, while we're on or?

Andrew Fink  42:23

No, I think this has been this has been great. Jeff, thank you for the opportunity.

Jeff  42:27

Ya know, I'd love to catch up in you know, six months to 12. And well, we'll talk of course, but just to see sort of how the perspectives have gone. What sort of challenges and new types of challenges you've bumped into? And yeah, who do you use as mentorship and then the new role and things like that, that'd be great.

Andrew Fink  42:44

That's awesome. I look forward to good luck with the rest of your series.

Jeff  42:47

Thank you, I appreciate it. And you have a good rest of the day and get get your rest before you start the new naps and naps are very critical.

Andrew Fink  42:58

Especially with doing all the workout you're doing Jeff want

Jeff  43:02

you to YouTube, you know what you know working from home, I will say it is nice to be able to squeeze in, set the alarm for 15 minutes, close your eyes. And and then wake up and meditate. Definitely meditate at the beginning of the day. You know, I think that's helped a lot since you've known me over the years, calmed down a little bit. But you know, you do what you need to do in the world that we're living in today, and you're right, so with that, I will I will sign off and thanks so much and look forward to chatting to

Andrew Fink  43:38

thank you Jeff